Sail Panel Paint Bubbles

[4th Gen Camaro Addict]

@wake00 wrote:Good information here. Thanks for posting the pictures as well.



A few questions... So does the culprit appear to be sunlight (heat) or is it just age? Has anyone tried the aftermarket panels?



Jason...........................it has to do with age................the longer the adhesive has to "out gas" it will continue to do it. Being out in the sun certainly speeds it up. My ZL-1 spends 95% of it's life in a climate controlled enviorment but I do take it to car shows which are primarily on hot summer days. I was waiting for a response to the post in this thread from 01BLACKBIRD#13 before I order one on the sail panels from 6litereaters design for my Dale Earnhardt Intimidator SS.

[thebodygod]

Interesting I have not seen one with this problem, however, I did look at Aaron's Blackbird, and it appeared to have ( Solvent Popping ) this occurs when paint is applied either too heavy and not enough dry time between coats, or poor air circulation. I was at Matt's place ( GMMG ) a couple times, they did not have a paint booth, just a room with a makeshift exhaust fan. If you are seeing tiny pinhole type bubbles, it's a paint problem. I've never seen any 4th gen with a roof panel with a ( sepertaion ) problem resulting from the urthane used to glue them on. I suggest to all Gen 4 Owners, have a professional paint tech look at it before you resort to such extensive costs of replacement.

[thebodygod]

I should also add, My Hot Rod Car has been on 3 Power Tours and many cars shows, my car is not a trailer queen, and the paint on my roof panel ain't the best, but I know why, and it IS a paint issue. I just never felt like repainting it. But someday, I will, because my front bumper and hood needs to be repainted from stone chips, this is caused by Enjoying the car and actually Driving It !!!

[4th Gen Camaro Addict]

@thebodygod wrote:Interesting I have not seen one with this problem, however, I did look at Aaron's Blackbird, and it appeared to have ( Solvent Popping ) this occurs when paint is applied either too heavy and not enough dry time between coats, or poor air circulation. I was at Matt's place ( GMMG ) a couple times, they did not have a paint booth, just a room with a makeshift exhaust fan. If you are seeing tiny pinhole type bubbles, it's a paint problem. I've never seen any 4th gen with a roof panel with a ( sepertaion ) problem resulting from the urthane used to glue them on. I suggest to all Gen 4 Owners, have a professional paint tech look at it before you resort to such extensive costs of replacement.





Jeff...................did you read the T.S.B.?



http://ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/p ... 6-roof.pdf



My ZL-1 did have this and Matt personally spoke to the Body Shop Manager at the Chevy dealership that did my roof for me.



Matt even told me that the adhessive would start running out from behind my roof and down my rear fenders and it had ! ! !



The Dale Earnhardt car that I just bought in October has the same paint bubbles that my ZL-1 had but as of yet, hasn't started running down the outside of the rear fenders yet.

[thebodygod]

Yup, read it, it talks about paint bubles, but a GM bulletin is not always the correct fix, and GM will send these out as a blanket bulletin so dealerships will just follow along. Unless that panel was loose and coming apart, I would never recomend that procedure. I don't see it possible that the urethane would cause a bubble unless there were another issue. Like I said, I have never seen a camaro have this problem except for the Paint Problem. Just because a Dealership Body Shop Manager says this, is still not mean it was the correct fix, but for them, it's a big fat Warranty Repair for them. I used to work for dealership, I would fix things that were wrong with a vehicle before GM knew what to do. Sorry, devils advocate. I will repair a welded on panel before replacing, when others will want to replace it for the $$$$$, not worrying about the effects it has on the vehicle, Unless of course, that panel is beyond repair.

[01BLACKBIRD13]

Hello all, I have tried the re-sanding primiring, and painting. It does NOT work, It comes back. The glue they used literally eats holes through the panel! Its a waste of time and money. The only way to truly fix it is to replace the panel and use the correct 3M adhesive that is in the GM technical bulletin. Like I had said, I bought a panel from 6litereaters and it looks fine as far as quality, but I have not had to have it installed yet so the body man might say something different. The only other option is to buy a used one (which I have done also!) and that is risky you could be getting an old one that has not been replaced. In my opinion our ONLY option is 6Litereaters panels. If they are not perfect any decent body guy can work with it. I am just glad they make them or we would really be hosed! My Mecham T/A is needing it replaced, but I just started noticing it at the end of the summer at the car shows, so I will probably have it done in October. Unless it gets really bad this summer.

[4th Gen Camaro Addict]

First..........................let me say that I'm sure Jeff G. (thebodygod) has forgotten more about painting and body work than I'll ever know but I do trust the body shop manager at the Chevrolet dealership that I made referrence to. He has been in this business for a long time as well and he and I have been friends for several years too. In my case, I had bubbles and runs in the paint and just like Matt Murphy told me it would, the adhesive was oozing out from under the roof just behind the door windows where the roof meets the rear fender and onto the fender and was running down it. I feel sure in my case as well that the roof needed to be peeled off and replaced as per the T.S.B.



Also................as I said before...............this also appears to be happening on the Dale Earnhardt Intimidator that I just recently purchased. My plan is to order one of the sail panels from 6litereater designs and have the Chevrolet dealership remove my old panel, prepare and paint the new one and properly install it on my Intimidator SS.



The cost of the sail panel from 6litereater designs is $390.00 plus shipping of $135.00 and the Chevrolet dealership told me that they would charge me $450.00 to epoxy the underside of the sail panel, prepare and paint the surface, remove my existing sail panel and install the new sail panel so it appears my total cost will be $975.00 TOTAL. I had initially figured the cost would be between $1,500 and $1,800 which is almost twice as much as it "appears" that it will cost me.



****************** I ordered a sail panel from 6litereater designs this afternoon after I initially made the post immediately above this morning and had it shipped to the Chevrolet dealer who is going to paint and install this for me.

[4th Gen Camaro Addict]

Well………………..my sail panel arrived today from 6 liter eater designs and let me tell you about the “minor” dilemma that I encountered with ordering this sail panel from 6 liter eater designs.



I ordered my sail panel “on-line” on 01-16-2013 and they charged my credit card on 01-17-2013 so I “assumed” that they would ship this sail panel to me on 01-18-2013. Therefore I again “assumed” that I “should” have this within a week or so.



On Friday, 01-18-2013 I sent them the following email:



Can you please advise "when" this order will be shipped and when expected delivery to Bob Brown Chevrolet in Urbandale (suburb of Des Moines, Iowa) is expected?



Thank you.



And I received no response so a week later on 01-24-2013 I sent them this email:



This is my second request for a status update regarding the sail panel I ordered on 01/16/13. Please advise me when it was shipped and who you shipped it too and how you shipped it.



And then this is the response that I received:



I know I personally replied to the first one, I'm hoping it didn't bounce back and this one do the same... As per the ordering page:



"This item ships within 2-4 weeks. Sometimes sooner if we have them in stock. Please contact us to get an accurate timeframe."



My private labeler is saying these are supposed to be in and ship first week of Feb, thanks!



Mark



So, then I sent the following response back to “Mark”:



Mark,



I did get this response from you but did not receive the first one that you said you sent. I was under the impression that you had these in stock according to your website. It would have been nice to know that you didn't have these in stock and I certainly wouldn't have thought you would have charged my credit card until you had the item in stock to ship to me. I am the administrator of a national Camaro & Firebird forum board and I will now post this on the forum board so that anyone who orders this product from you should check with you first and make sure that you have the product in stock prior to ordering since you will require payment in full even before you have the product to sell. Having been a automotive business owner, I certainly don't think that this is a proper business practice and I never did this with my customers ! ! !



And then I received this response back from Mark:



That was clearly posted on the ordering page that it takes 2-4 weeks, has been for over a year. Also, PayPal immediately charges, not us. Using a credit card we can delay processing but we have no control over PayPal.



Not knowing how PayPal works, not reading the ordering page and then wanting to bad mouth us about it does not sound like a professional automotive business owner to me.



I am sorry but you are the first person who has been upset over something clearly written on the page you ordered from and the rest of my response is just honesty as to how uninformed and unprofessional your email comes across.



Mark DeLisle

http://www.6LEDesigns.com



Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint!



I then replied back to him with this email:



Mark,



I didn't say I was upset, but I certainly don't think that this is a good business practice. I never charged my customers for anything that I ordered until I had it ready for delivery. I certainly hope that you ship this out to me immediately when you receive it. I never said I was going to "bad mouth" your business but I certainly think that folks should be cautioned about your business practice so that they know BEFORE ordering that they will be charged regardless of whether you have the product or not. And by the way, I DID use a credit card..............it was a VISA card and you did not delay processing.



If you had the product in stock, why would it take 2 to 4 weeks for shipping? Where will it be shipped from?



I'm sorry that you thought my email was "unprofessional" but I think that charging and getting paid for something that you don't have is very "unprofessional" too.



We have had quite a discussion on the forum board about these sail panels and I am the "guinea pig" to test your product and see how everything works. Unfortunately, we're not getting off to a good start.



And his response to my email was:



Once again, you used paypal which charges immediately. Yes, you used a CC, but through Paypal.



No one said we have these in stock, again the ordering page clearly says...





"This item ships within 2-4 weeks. Sometimes sooner if we have them in stock. Please contact us to get an accurate timeframe."





Not sure where any of your confusion is coming from...



The bad mouth comment was in regards to things you said in your e-mail, I did not mean to imply that you had implied you would bad mouth us anywhere else.



I honestly don't know what else to tell you at this point. The order was taken through paypal so it charged right away. As always, as soon as we have it ready we ship it immediately.



We pay a company to private label these and try to keep them in stock but every once in awhile we get hit with a ton of orders and have to ship as we make, like the holidays which just occurred.



Mark

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A couple of things I want to point out……………….on their website………..if you pay by credit card you only have one choice and that is to have it processed through “Pay-pal” so it’s not like I was provided with another method of processing my credit card. Also, if a business is going to immediately charge my credit card…………….is it not proper to expect that they indeed have the product in stock and will be shipping it out immediately?



Anyway……………………I wanted to share this with all of you who might decide to order a sail panel from this business. I would “caution” you to first contact them and make sure that they have them “in stock” before you order a sail panel from them. My “opinion” is that this business is operating with a negative cash flow and their credit must not be good so they have to pay the manufacturer with the money they collect from you before the manufacturer will produce this sail panel and ship it out to you. I thought with the way that “Mark” was dancing around with me that “maybe” I had lost my money and I wouldn’t see the sail panel at all.



Anyway………………….the sail panel arrived today soooooo…………..my wait was not out-of-line because I wasn’t in a big hurry for it anyway but as you can see from the emails above, he never answered my questions about when it would be shipped and from where or how it would be shipped to me.



As soon as the sail panel was delivered to the Chevrolet dealership body shop today……………….they called me and had me come out so that they could unbox it and we could inspect it together.



Their professional opinion was that it was like most after-market body parts and it will need some “finessing” to make it fit and look right as on a scale of “1 to 10”………………..it was about a “4”.



There were areas where it was really rough and wavy and they said they would need to block sand it and then re-primer it to make it look like the way they knew that I would want it to look after they painted it. I told them to do whatever it took because I was in no hurry for it and I was more concerned about it looking “excellent” after they finished it. Furthermore, I told them that I probably wouldn’t bring the car out until April or May when the weather got better to have them cut the old sail panel off and install this new one. I told them that whenever they were caught up and looking for something to do, then they could work on this because once again, most of the guys know me well there including the body shop manager and they know that I am very picky about how it will look when their finished. This same shop did my entire roof on my ZL-1…………..cutting it off and painting and installing the new roof and they did an excellent job.



As you will see in the photographs below, the manufacturer just puts it in a big cardboard box to ship it with absolutely no bracing to protect it from damage in shipping. The manufacturer just wraps it in a little bit of “bubble wrap” and throws it in a box.



You will also see from my shipping label who the manufacturer is and their telephone number. If anyone else is going to order one, you might contact the manufacturer direct and see if you can order it from them and cut out the middle man (6 liter eater designs).



The cost of the sail panel was $390.00 from 6 liter eater designs and they charged me $135.00 for shipping it to me U.P.S. in this cardboard box. I had no choices on shipping. They did not ask me how I wanted it shipped at all. I thought the shipping charge was very high however, after receiving it today, I went to a friends business that ships many items through U.P.S. every day. With the shipping label, it had everything he needed to be able to tell me what it would cost me to ship this box with the sail panel in it back to the manufacturer and it would have cost me $168.69 to ship it back so I guess the shipping wasn’t out of line BUT I was concerned that with no bracing in the box or no other filler material that it’s a wonder that the sail panel didn’t get broke or damaged in shipping ! ! !



Anyway………………….here are the pictures:

[Berger 93]

Sadly today, virtually EVERYONE charges you the full price BEFORE it ships . . . even before they have it . . . such as Home Depot . . Menards . . majority of car part suppliers. . .



BUT you did finally get it.

[BERGER SS 38]

Camaro performers magazine April 2013 issue volume 10 #3 just did a complete article on removing and replacing the old sail panel for just this reason.